[draft discussion] A modulator that loads Grid patches

@andrei_olenev, have you checked Bitwig Preset: Grid Control Modulation - Macro Sender v5 (Save to presets - Poly Grid)?

@teezee92 ican the Grid Modulation values be read by modulators, as this feature request proposes?

Hi. I haven’t seen that. Just checking it out now. It looks cool. It’s different than what I was trying to describe here though. The idea that I was going for would be simply a modulator that opens up The Grid, or a slimmed down Grid, so you could save custom modulators. You can already make modulators in the grid, but the idea is just to have a simplified way of using them, so you could load custom modulators like any other Bitwig modulator, instead of having to put what you want to modulate inside of a grid patch, or route the modulation from a Grid patch.

This definitely isn’t one of my top requests, but it’s simple something I thought would make cuing custom modulators a lot simpler and more streamlined.

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Thank you for the clarification, @andrei_olenev.

A modulator opening the whole Grid sounds overkill but at least is conceptually simple. A simplified version of The Grid complicates things a lot because… what do you include/exclude in this version?

Right now there is no way to save custom modulators, is it? This means that this part of the functionality would need to be added, with or without Grid.

Wouldn’t it be better to have a modulator capable of “loading” any Grid (FX?) preset and use any values in it? This way you would collect Grid (FX?) presets (something you can do today) instead of custom modulators (which don’t exist yet).

Maybe it would be better to just ask for the saving of custom modulators. That was basically what I was thinking about with this. The way I imagined it, was that there would be a modulator where you could have custom modulator patches that were created in The Grid.

Wouldn’t it be better to have a modulator capable of “loading” any Grid (FX?) preset and use any values in it? This way you would collect Grid (FX?) presets (something you can do today) instead of custom modulators (which don’t exist yet).

That makes sense to me. It’s already easy enough to make and use custom modulators in the Grid. The whole idea with this is just to simply using them. So, instead of having to load what you want to modulate into the fx chain of a Grid Patch, you could just load in a modulator, like you do with other modulators, and open a previously made Grid patch in that modulator.

Since this request is just aimed at simplifying something that is already possible, maybe it isn’t really necessary. I’m not attached to it. Let me know what you think.

We have other requests that are about tinier simplifications, so I don’t see a problem with this.

In this case, we are combining two pieces that are core to Bitwig: modulators and Grid FX. The idea of having a modulator capable of loading an existing Grid FX preset is conceptually simple. If this saves work and makes it easier to share Grid FX presets that can be used as modulators (something that I cannot assess because I haven’t created or used Grid FX), then I’d say why not. This is of course your call.

A request for saving custom modulators sound interesting too but right now with the current modulators, what custom modulator would you save?

For now, this is just about simplifying the process of making custom modulators in The Grid. My hope is that if we begin with simply allowing grid patches to be loaded as modulators, it could eventually develop into something where we could design and share custom modulators.

A request for saving custom modulators sound interesting too but right now with the current modulators, what custom modulator would you save?

I have used the Grid for making many different modulators. I have a few that I have uploaded videos about on my youtube channel.

The first is an 8 channel 16 step parameter locking sequencer, which was influenced by a Eurorack modulae, called the Malekko Voltage block:

The second is an x/y sequencer. Even though it is a sequencer, it is sent to a modulation source, so I think of it like a modulator:

The third is a step sequenced LFO. It allows different lfo shapes and rates per step:

These are just a few examples, but they are the ones I have put online.

There is a ton you can do already for custom modulators. As the Grid develops more, it will open more possibilities as well. Especially if they add deeper programming, like suggested on this thread: A Pure Data Grid block - #5 by ddd

Other types of modulators I would love to see would be modulators based off geometric shapes , like the “figure modulator” in UVI Shade, or weird math based modulators, like lorenz attractors.

I’m probably rambling on, but there are many types of modulators that people will think up, so I think having a modular way to build, save, and share those modulators would be cool, and would fit in with Bitwig’s unique feature sets.

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Ok, one last question. What information could the modulator use from a Grid patch? Just the output, something else? We need to think about how this would look like in the UI of the modulator.

I have renamed this request to make more clear what it is about. @andrei_olenev Does the new title work for you? Also the beginning of the description.

We already have modulators from the grid, but ideally, I think it would be cool to have the modulator out devices have corresponding modulator right on the modulator device window, without having to open the Grid patch.

I would like to see this as something where we can make modulators that have their own basic interfaces without having to open The Grid’s window. That way, they could be treated like any other modulator, without getting lost in the mess of cables in the grid. Eventually, maybe they could add a suite of devices for making a custom interface for modulators. That is kind of the same thing I hope to see eventually with Containers in the Grid.

But, back to your question. I think we could just use the existing modulator devices in the Grid. It would be much more streamlined though if you could link modulator outs in The Grid to little modulators in the modulator device window.

I know some of the wording here might be confusing, because the modulator devices, and the Grid modulators are both called “modulators”.

Ok, now I feel lost again. :smiley:

Let’s clarify the vocabulary first. What about this:

If we agree on this terminology, what in the title or the description should be fixed?

I think the confusion might be because there are 3 types of modulators that I’m talking about.

  1. modulator devices (the modulators available on the side of any instrument or effect)

  2. Modulators in the Grid. (This is a module within the Grid that allows you to modulate parameters within your Grid patch, or any devices in it’s fx chain)

  3. Modulators within Modulator devices(1). These are the little modulator icons within Modulator Devices(1). Some Modulator devices, such as the Par-seq8 have several of these within the device.

I tried my best to specify which types of modulators I was talking about, but it’s a bit tricky, since they are both called “modulators”

Anyway, back to how this idea would look, I just imagine a modulator device (1) called “Grid Modulator” or something similatr. This modulator device (1) would allow you to open Grid patches. Within those patches, you could use the modulators within The Grid (2) to modulate parameters on whatever device you have loaded the “Grid Modulator Device”(1), just like you can already do to devices on the fx chain of The Grid. The only difference is that, rather than having to load devices into a Grid Patch’s fx chain to modulate them, you would simply be able to load the Grid Patch within the Device Modulators(1).

If we get that, I think it would be great to have some tools to customize the interfaces of our custom Grid Modulator devices(1). And, I think it would be great to have the option of adding mini modulators (3) that could be linked to the Modulators within The Grid (2), so users of Custom Grid Modulator Devices (1) wouldn’t need to open the Grid, but could have access to all the necessary parameters right on the interface of the Modulator Device(1).

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Ok, so

  1. Modulators”. This is clear.
  2. Do you mean the “Modulator Out” module in the I/O category of The Grid, the one with the blue arrow?
  3. Here you mean the “Modulation Routing buttons”, which consist of the same blue arrow.

If you confirm 2 then I will be certain that I understand to the last detail what this request is about. :slight_smile:

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Yes, that is all right.

I have edited the title and description. Let’s see whether I got it right this time.

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Hi. Just reading over it. Everything looks good, but I think the previous title might have been better. To me, the current title might be confusing to people, because it sounds like we are asking for the option to save and share these modulators, but the modulator doesn’t exist yet. I think it is better to just say “A modulator that opens Grid patches”. Saving is already a given, and the idea of sharing presets is explained in the description.

I think it could be good to also mention the idea of custom interfaces for these modulators too, or do you think that is too much for a single request? The reason I would like to, is that it leads to the overall idea of custom user modulators. I can write another paragraph desribing that idea. Let me know what you think

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Ok, I see your reasoning. Reverted.

Your request, your decision. :slight_smile:

In my opinion, this request already packs two features that are new and I bet not simple to implement: loading Grid patches on a modulator, and saving modulators just like you can save presets. Custom interfaces would be a third chunk of likely complex groundbreaking work.

Then again, the Bitwig team understands like none of us how fitting and how complex each piece is, so if you add it here, they will know what to do with each piece if they like the idea.

As said, up to you.

I’d rather have device/module/modulator editor, that Bitwig initially wanted to include prior to v1. and at least at that time it existed and seems like still does in some form. the benefit is that it would be more low-level and results would be as efficient as native devices/modules/modulators.
Don’t forget that modulators can be polyphonic on native devices, and polyphonic Grid for modulator can put some CPUs to their knees. Or rather, depending on patch complexity - any CPU for that matter.

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Blockquote I’d rather have device/module/modulator editor, that Bitwig initially wanted to include prior to v1. and at least at that time it existed and seems like still does in some form. the benefit is that it would be more low-level and results would be as efficient as native devices/modules/modulators.
Don’t forget that modulators can be polyphonic on native devices, and polyphonic Grid for modulator can put some CPUs to their knees. Or rather, depending on patch complexity - any CPU for that matter.

One thing that could help with CPU is that this probably wouldn’t require the oversampling that Grid has, unless maybe it is being used for audio rate modulation. ( An oversampling amount option in The Grid would be cool as well). Also, if we can make modulator interfaces, and not need to have the Grid’s window open, there would probably be a reduction in CPU for processing the graphics in The Grid.

I would really be happy with any type of custom modulator builder. The only reason I requested it within The Grid is that The Grid is the modular environment we have, and I’m already using it to make custom modulators, so I felt like having a convenient way of loading those patches as modulators would just help with the workflow of that type of thing.

But, I’m not attached to it being within The Grid. Again, any modulator builder/ editor would be great. But, I think it is a more ambitious request to ask for a whole new environment to build these. I think it would probably be an easier to implement request to have these modulators use The Grid, or some simplified/modifed version of The Grid.

I just added a bit to the description. Let me know if it looks good to you.

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As I’ve mentioned, originally they’ve built such environment first and seem to still use it internally. The difference is that making it available for users would make Bitwig capabilities on par with Ableton with it’s M4L if not surpassing it due to proper integration and efficiency.

In any case, this request is ready for #features. If the Bitwig team is interested in it, they will have opinions about the implementation details. :slight_smile:

If someone creates a request about a device/module/modulator editor, then we can connect it to this one, and maybe polish boundaries.